Dr. Aziza al-Hibri is a Muslim feminst and teaches in University of Richmond Law School. She is the founder and executive director of Karamah: Muslim Women Lawyres for Human Rights and the founding editor of Hypatia: A Journal of Feminist Philosophy. On Wednesday and Thursday, April 3-4, she gave two lectures on ``State, Society and the Family: A Qur'anic Worldview'' for the Jellema Lecture series at Calvin College. She talked about the women's rights in Islam in particular, and with regards to this topic, Joo Eun Kim, writer for Chimes, interviewed Dr. al-Hibri on April 4, 2002.

Could you tell us about your background that made you a Muslim feminist?

I come from a religious family, and as I was growing up, I felt a little bit uncomfortable with rules and regulations of my family and rebelled against them. And I always felt that they were a part of my religion. But when I came to the US, and that was during the feminist movement in the 1960s, I was not so concerned with religion as I used to be. But then later in my life, I realized that secular life does not give you everything you need--that there's a real void in that life. So I gravitated back to my faith but had a problem with the issue of how could I go back if I thought that there were many conjunctions that detracted from my mind of being a free woman. But then I thought, `Why don't I go back to the Qu'ran and study it and read it?' And when I went back to the Qu'ran and read it, I found out that a lot of things I was uncomfortable with were not from God but men--and I mean men, not human kind. So as a result, I decided to help Muslim sisters to let them know what God had said opposed to what some interpreters had said. So that other women would participate in the freedom, [which was] exemplified in the Prophet's life.

What are you advocating right now? What women's rights are you advocating for?

Any property of a Mulsim's woman's is hers alone, not her father's, not her husband's. She has a very solid protection. What I'm advocating is that in order to understand what women should strive for, you have to go to the whole Qu'ran. You don't go to a verse here and a verse there and select what you like and say, ``These are the rights'' because the Qu'ran is a seamless web. You can't understand one part of it, without understanding all the elements. Because there's the whole picture which is intertwined, and each part of it supports the other. So if you only take one part of it, the whole picture will be unbalanced. So I'm advocating that you go back to the Qu'ran itself, not necessarily cultural interpretation, which may have been patriarchal. And find out what God has revealed for everybody and stick to that, rather than implement parts of the Qu'ran that are beneficial to you, and those that support others like women--you forget about them.

Are you advocating that we take American culture into Islam?

Sure. In fact, the juristic principle is that laws change in time and in country. We don't mean by that the major laws--for example, the principle that there is only one God. But any cultural beliefs and customs that are consistent with the Qu'ran may be brought in as a way to celebrate the diversity, which the Qu'ran says that God gave to us. And American culture is one of the cultures in the world that God gave us, so we celebrate it. But we have to the celebrate it by taking the best of it. And things that are inconsistent with the Qu'ran, we should take [out]--for example idolizing power and money. That is not necessarily a defining characteristic of our culture, but certainly aspects of our culture that have idolized money and power. This is contrary to the spirituality of many Christians, Jews, and Muslim-Americans, and we should be able to take the better aspects of our culture... I'm advocating that Muslims, who came from various geographical areas of the world... form their new culture. They have to start re-studying their belief and their understanding of Islam. The understanding and practice of Islam--we do so by understanding what are some of the customs. [What] God instituted and revealed for the benefit of humankind can have an opposite effect. We have to really understand the purpose of the law, which is that God created the law for public interest.

In your opinion, why have the Islamic countries been slower to develop for women's rights than other cultures?

Essentially, the whole development--political and social development of Muslim countries have been affected by two factors: one in internal terms and the other external. The internal one is that the early tendency, from the death of the Prophet, is to move away from democratic power. And the external is the interference of the colonial powers in social developments, which invariably affects the women's rights. But now, many Muslims have understood that and are going back to the Qu'ran and trying to overcome all of these structures.

What are your involvements with the State Department?

The State Department had an involvement in the past called the U.S. Information Service, now it's called the Office of Public Diplomacy. And what they do is they invite outstanding leaders to go abroad and to talk about matters in his or her specialty to other countries. But they also bring delegates from other countries to come and see what our society looks like. And it is through public diplomacy that we have a better understanding. I went to [the Afghanistan-Pakistan border to talk to Muslim leaders] through the US Information Service, and basically I don't tell them that I have better information or this is how you should do certain things. But I just sit and have conversations with them, and they know what to do.

What are your short-term and long-term goals for the Muslim women?

Well, for the short terms, I would like to see women study Islam on their own--at universities, of course, but I mean that they become teachers of Islam, not just students so that they would know enough to become judges and civic leaders. That's what I hope for short-term and long-term. Because when they become judges and know the law, then the whole picture changes. I do not impose a culture. The philosophy of the Qu'ran is about gradual change. Because a gradual change [will] survive for a longer period of time. So I'm looking for that gradual change.

Do you mean that you want to have equality between men and women?

Well, you know, you are talking in the western perspective. What does it mean for a Muslim woman to be liberated? For a Muslim woman to be liberated, it's for her to have all the rights and obligations given to her in the Qu'ran. What does that mean? Well, it means that there are things in the Qu'ran that men and women can do, such as engaging in jobs. They both can work. Does a woman have to work? No, if she wants to work, she can. Are they equal? I think it's wrong to talk about equality because as I said, the Qu'ran engages in affirmative action in favor of women, which I might say is ``equitable.'' And there are things that Muslim women want to do that the Qu'ran [restricts.] But I do not look for automatic, mechanical equality. If women choose not to work and support themselves, they ought to be entitled to be supported by their husband and families as well. And that's what the Qu'ran reserves for women.

Are you really then advocating for the religious movement, rather than women's movement?

No, it's a human rights movement. If you start oppressing women, then all the society has gone off the straight path. And that means that other people in your society are being oppressed--some minorities, some groups. If we're going to talk about women's rights, you cannot get there without correcting the fundamental. We're correcting it for everybody. The Qu'ran is [fundamental], and you need to go back to it and read it with fresh eyes to make sure than any cultural, patriarchal, authoritarian assumptions injected in interpretations of the past will no longer necessarily be acceptable to us.

You mentioned in your talk that piety determines hierarchy in Islam. What determines piety in Islam?

Only God knows if you are pious. In fact, in Islam, there is no hierarchy. God always know who is pious. I wouldn't want to say God is concerned about hierarchy. If there is a person more pious than others, then God would know. I would not know, and the pious person would not know, and the sinful person would not know.

How does the notion of piety tie with women's rights?

The way I have tied that very often when I've talked to the men who are pious and who have patriarchal beliefs on certain matters, I've pointed out to them what the Qu'ran said and how it's contrary to some of the beliefs they're holding. They were willing to abandon their beliefs. They're all bound by the Qu'ran, not just their narrow interests.

How do you hope that other cultures will understand Islam more?

They're doing it. It's through talking to each other, studying the Qu'ran, and dialoging about it. And it's only through the dialogue of civilization that change would occur. For example, in Egypt there was a change in the law of divorce two years ago, now I understand, and Jordan had amended the law similar to it. I would expect that more countries are going to be changed--that's the dialogue of civilization.

After the recent terrorist event, do you think there is a greater need for the other cultures to understand Islam better?

I don't think the Sept. 11th event has anything to do with the understanding of Islam because I believe that you had political motivation, not religious. People need to understand Islam very well, so that if somebody made a religious claim about their behavior, you would know that it's not genuine.

Having experienced different cultures, how did that broaden your perspective, compared to Muslim women who are only exposed to one culture?

Each culture sees the negative of the other culture. Any women from any culture can think that they are liberated. For example, many Muslim women are appalled at the pressures that the American women undergo [in appearance], like face-lifts. Although it may be a matter of choice, but there is pressure for women, and that pressure is patriarchal. Muslim women do not have the pressure to look dolled-up. The Muslim women do not mind wearing the veils, but for us, it becomes significant. So it depends on who's looking at whom. I think ideally, we should all talk to each other so that we [learn] from each other's cultures.